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Tuesday, April 8, 2008

Debate seorang rakan baik (Muslim) dan seorang cina Kristian

Sama2 kita renungkan chat antara kawan saya dan seorang cina kristian dari Malaysia.

am_eniey - Izham, Malay Muslim
christjeff80 - Chinese Christian

Chat/Perbualan bulan 2 lepas

asal perbualan bermula dlm jam 11pm..
dan seterusnya masuk cerita Benazir (Pakistan), dan ikuti perbualan dan debat seterusnya...

christjeff80 (12:00:11 PM): u know benazir?
am_eniey (12:00:29 PM): yes...she was shot
christjeff80 (12:00:46 PM): she bombed by terrorist
am_eniey (12:00:52 PM): she doesnt have a good personality record anyway
christjeff80 (12:01:06 PM): is it true? can u explain?
am_eniey (12:01:23 PM): she was involved in corruption and bribery in the 90's
am_eniey (12:01:35 PM): maybe that's the price she deserve
am_eniey (12:01:48 PM): i dont support murder but that may be the price
am_eniey (12:05:54 PM): http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/557066
am_eniey (12:15:52 PM): http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/557066

christjeff80 (12:37:06 PM): why do u say that she is not a good politician?
am_eniey (12:37:48 PM): as i said
am_eniey (12:37:54 PM): involvement in bribery
am_eniey (12:37:59 PM): and corruption in the 90's
am_eniey (12:38:07 PM): she was thrown away from pakistan
christjeff80 (12:38:14 PM): she involve in bribery? really?
am_eniey (12:38:26 PM): i thought u know better
christjeff80 (12:38:42 PM): no...
christjeff80 (12:38:51 PM): how u know that?
am_eniey (12:38:57 PM): it's an old story
am_eniey (12:39:00 PM): 90's story
christjeff80 (12:39:05 PM): i see
christjeff80 (12:39:14 PM): what else she commited?
christjeff80 (12:39:59 PM): poor bhutto, killed at 54.
christjeff80 (12:40:18 PM): what do u think about malaysia? is it a good country?
am_eniey (12:40:28 PM): i don't really like the pakistani government....past and present
am_eniey (12:40:36 PM): malaysia is good enough for me
christjeff80 (12:40:38 PM): mee too
am_eniey (12:40:38 PM): and thankful
christjeff80 (12:40:41 PM): *me
christjeff80 (12:41:13 PM): but malaysian government and stage leaders also involve in bribery like indonesian
am_eniey (12:41:39 PM): all government leaders are involved in bribery...but it's a matter of how serious
christjeff80 (12:41:46 PM): even worse
am_eniey (12:41:54 PM): indonesian leaders take almost all from their country money
am_eniey (12:42:00 PM): this is the worst case scenario
christjeff80 (12:42:08 PM): Finland is the cleanest.
am_eniey (12:42:25 PM): i agree
christjeff80 (12:42:41 PM): In my opinion, religion is the matter...sorry to say that
am_eniey (12:42:48 PM): i agree
christjeff80 (12:42:56 PM): religion influence a lot in ethics
am_eniey (12:42:58 PM): no religion no rules
christjeff80 (12:43:02 PM): and moral value
am_eniey (12:43:07 PM): because rules are made in the heart...not paper
christjeff80 (12:43:22 PM): Finland is a Christian country
am_eniey (12:43:43 PM): yes it depends on the leader
christjeff80 (12:44:02 PM): like Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia all are Muslim country...but I am not saying that all christian countries are clean.
am_eniey (12:44:21 PM): if a leader applies all the teachings of the religion.....it will be a better country
christjeff80 (12:45:02 PM): overall, Christianity country still play a good model
am_eniey (12:45:04 PM): not to miss corrupted christian countries like romania, belarus, venezuela and most of latin countries...no offence
am_eniey (12:45:12 PM): it depends on the individual moral values
christjeff80 (12:45:36 PM): i do agree ur statement but still , christianity influence a lot and deep.
am_eniey (12:45:55 PM): it depends on the individual who handles things
am_eniey (12:46:09 PM): religion cannot be blamed for what the worshippers do
am_eniey (12:46:23 PM): maybe the worshippers dont worship their religion at all
christjeff80 (12:46:46 PM): I agree, even a lot muslim behave better than other religion
am_eniey (12:46:53 PM): like in malaysia....malays are muslim...but i believe only less than 10% follows the teaching of islam
christjeff80 (12:47:08 PM): same as christian
am_eniey (12:47:21 PM): it's a human nature to obey their lust
christjeff80 (12:47:34 PM): yes..
am_eniey (12:48:07 PM): if a human finds a rm100 note by the road side....maybe 99% takes it for own purpose
christjeff80 (12:48:10 PM): old testament restrict christian to invlove in corruption
am_eniey (12:48:13 PM): 1% will donate the money
christjeff80 (12:48:33 PM): yes...i admit to do that too
am_eniey (12:48:34 PM): this 99% are probably may get involved with bribery in certain case
christjeff80 (12:49:02 PM): we are sinful man in greedy.
christjeff80 (12:49:25 PM): we have the lust of greed.
am_eniey (12:49:41 PM): everybody has it...it's a matter of how we control it
christjeff80 (12:49:43 PM): and the lust of adultery
christjeff80 (12:49:51 PM): yape
am_eniey (12:50:16 PM): like for me...i'm a malay and i'm a muslim
am_eniey (12:50:26 PM): in islam....there should be no such word such as racist
am_eniey (12:50:34 PM): all human beings are the same
am_eniey (12:50:48 PM): the one who say melayu melayu melayu....i totally disagree with them
christjeff80 (12:50:56 PM): in bible, we believe all human are fallen since Adam and Eve.
am_eniey (12:50:56 PM): same goes to other races
am_eniey (12:51:19 PM): jew,christian and islam have many in common
christjeff80 (12:51:36 PM): because they all believe old testmanent
am_eniey (12:51:38 PM): which bible do you read....the king james or the roman?
christjeff80 (12:51:43 PM): *testament
christjeff80 (12:52:01 PM): NIV version
christjeff80 (12:52:08 PM): king james also available
am_eniey (12:52:15 PM): any difference?
christjeff80 (12:52:16 PM): u read bible as well?
am_eniey (12:52:31 PM): i read for my knowledge
christjeff80 (12:52:43 PM): content is same but interpretation are a bit different. still acceptable
am_eniey (12:52:58 PM): so which one is the original word of god?
christjeff80 (12:53:11 PM): i never have Quran before
christjeff80 (12:53:32 PM): we read Jehovah Jireh as God in the bible
christjeff80 (12:53:49 PM): we call God as Abba Father / heavenly father in bible
am_eniey (12:53:55 PM): i know
christjeff80 (12:54:02 PM): muslim call as Allah
am_eniey (12:54:15 PM): do u know in what language is the original bible comes?
christjeff80 (12:54:48 PM): old testament - Hebrew ; New testament - Aramaic and Greek
am_eniey (12:55:02 PM): so why there should be old and new
am_eniey (12:55:10 PM): in quran, there's no old and new
am_eniey (12:55:12 PM): i wonder also
christjeff80 (12:55:23 PM): i know that...let me explain
am_eniey (12:55:50 PM): ok
christjeff80 (12:57:18 PM): New testament is born only after the Jesus Christ came to this world in flesh which means Jesus prepare another new way to the world so that we can come to the God through Jesus Christ. As a christian, we believe both OT and NT.
am_eniey (12:58:26 PM): may i know why christian nowadays refer to the english written bible instead of the jew written bible
am_eniey (12:58:46 PM): i mean that there should be reference for any sort of translation
am_eniey (12:59:05 PM): like in quran....every verse in arab, there's a local language translated on the side
am_eniey (12:59:15 PM): so that we know the existence of the original verse
am_eniey (12:59:33 PM): there's no quran anywhere in the world written in local language only
am_eniey (1:00:29 PM): but from all the bibl i read, i cannot find any hebrew language i mean the original quotations
christjeff80 (1:02:07 PM): if Christians want to know the original language of the bible, he / she must study theological course which bring him/her to deeper understanding of original language, or ask the pastors and priests. Nowadays, there are lots of bilingual bible which consists of hebrew-"local language"
am_eniey (1:03:09 PM): why not bring themselves up deeper now.....there's no time to waste because death we wont know
christjeff80 (1:04:56 PM): for ur information, it's not easy to understand and study the hebrew and Greek language and also in Muslim country, we have limitation to set up churches and theological seminary.
am_eniey (1:05:40 PM): do u know the original name of Jesus?
christjeff80 (1:06:57 PM): We call Jesus as "son of God" , "Jesus Christ", "Jesus the Nazareth" and most notable, HE is one of the trinity God.
am_eniey (1:07:29 PM): i mean...where's the word Jesus comes from....is it the name?
christjeff80 (1:08:08 PM): yes, it can be found from bible
am_eniey (1:08:38 PM): do u know that there's no pronunciation `J` in the hebrew language
am_eniey (1:08:52 PM): how come so many prophet's name starts with `J`
am_eniey (1:10:32 PM): a name cannot be changed now matter what language the bible is
christjeff80 (1:13:39 PM): yes..that 's what we call as conjuctive pronoun because the fear of God
christjeff80 (1:13:57 PM): we can't simply call the name of God directly
am_eniey (1:14:20 PM): okay what about Jacob, John and others
am_eniey (1:14:37 PM): still there's pronunciation of J instead no J in hebrew language
am_eniey (1:17:15 PM): Joseph
am_eniey (1:17:20 PM): Job
am_eniey (1:17:26 PM): Jethro
am_eniey (1:17:34 PM): Jonah
am_eniey (1:17:56 PM): Elijah
am_eniey (1:18:57 PM): these are prophets...not god
christjeff80 (1:21:27 PM): yes. they are prophets but the starting name of "J" for those prophets is not important in biblical learning.
christjeff80 (1:21:52 PM): the most important is that we have to apply it in daily life
am_eniey (1:21:55 PM): it indeed important because they are the humans chose by god to become the leader
am_eniey (1:22:17 PM): so we as the follower ought to know the real name
christjeff80 (1:22:44 PM): maybe I will study that in future. Thanks for your reminder.
am_eniey (1:23:08 PM): i'm also studying these for the past few years
am_eniey (1:23:16 PM): but as a part time
christjeff80 (1:23:56 PM): why not u compare the christianity and Islam?
christjeff80 (1:24:01 PM): see any difference behind them?
christjeff80 (1:24:11 PM): is ur wife also muslim?
am_eniey (1:24:18 PM): i also study the differences between christian and islam
am_eniey (1:24:25 PM): my wife is also muslim
christjeff80 (1:24:27 PM): good
christjeff80 (1:24:32 PM): i see
christjeff80 (1:25:08 PM): then what is ur conclusion between christianity and islam?
am_eniey (1:25:30 PM): i only see the truthfullness in islam
am_eniey (1:25:47 PM): but i don't say christianity or jew is totally wrong
christjeff80 (1:26:02 PM): what about christianity?
am_eniey (1:26:32 PM): in chrtistianity if it's the true word of god, why the original hebrew verses stays hidden
am_eniey (1:26:41 PM): if it's the truth/.....the world should know
am_eniey (1:27:02 PM): if it's what god wants to say, then reveal it to the public
am_eniey (1:27:21 PM): not by making translations without referring to the original wordings of hebrew
christjeff80 (1:28:15 PM): it's already revealed to the public according to each local languages . don't u know that bible is the most translated language book in the world with around 2778 languages.
am_eniey (1:28:44 PM): the point is not the matter of what language it is translated with...the point is the reference
am_eniey (1:28:59 PM): we won't know that the translated means the same as the one written in hebrew
am_eniey (1:29:12 PM): because we have never seen the original one
christjeff80 (1:30:22 PM): but we can't understand the Hebrew and Greek. That's why the bible scholars translated it precisely into local languages. THat's the mercy of God to us.
am_eniey (1:31:17 PM): yes, you're right we dont understand, but there must have proof of the original verse so that we can know which chapter/verse should be accordingly as the translated one
am_eniey (1:31:55 PM): if chapter 1 verse 34 in english language, izzit chapter 1 verse 34 also in the hebrew language?
christjeff80 (1:32:15 PM): nowadys, we can get the original version from biblical searching instrument through internet and books.
christjeff80 (1:32:27 PM): yes...definitely
am_eniey (1:32:37 PM): how can u be so sure?
christjeff80 (1:32:49 PM): don't worry, God won't reveal wrongly to the world.
christjeff80 (1:33:00 PM): we test it before.
am_eniey (1:33:05 PM): yes indeed god wont reveal things wrongly
christjeff80 (1:33:11 PM): it's originally true
am_eniey (1:33:15 PM): but the one who make things wrong is human
am_eniey (1:33:16 PM): not god
christjeff80 (1:34:50 PM): I admit there are minor mistakes after translation but it is far better than reading the orignal version (Hebrew) without understanding in rationality and emotion.
christjeff80 (1:35:25 PM): anyway, I do have bible in Hebrew - English version but I often refer and read the English part.
christjeff80 (1:35:46 PM): because I am brought up in English education but not Hebrew like Hews.
am_eniey (1:36:11 PM): if it is the original word of god written in hebrew that contains rationality and emotion, then why don't you study hebrew language and get the real time feeling of the word of god
am_eniey (1:36:33 PM): english language was born far later than the existence of the hebrew language
christjeff80 (1:36:46 PM): yes..I agree
am_eniey (1:36:49 PM): so english language cannot be associated
christjeff80 (1:39:21 PM): but reading bible in Hebrew for the sake of knowledge and understanding is not enough. The most important is should obey and follow the words of God.
am_eniey (1:39:50 PM): yes but god reveal it in hebrew
am_eniey (1:40:00 PM): not english, malay, chinese and so on
christjeff80 (1:40:10 PM): i know.
christjeff80 (1:42:00 PM): because of the education system and political matter, we are not able to study the Hebrew since young.
christjeff80 (1:42:38 PM): Hebrew is from Jews which is against the Muslim, how can you ask it to be developed in Muslim countries?
am_eniey (1:43:12 PM): hebrew is a language
am_eniey (1:43:15 PM): jew is a religion
am_eniey (1:43:32 PM): studying the language doesnt mean somebody will become a jew
am_eniey (1:43:51 PM): the torah and bible shares the same language - hebrew
am_eniey (1:44:07 PM): but bible readers are not jew
am_eniey (1:44:12 PM): they are christian
christjeff80 (1:44:14 PM): i will address your problem to my pastors then
am_eniey (1:44:24 PM): yes i hope so
am_eniey (1:45:00 PM): and in malaysia the english language used mainly by christian in europe and USA is taught in primary and secondary school in malaysia
am_eniey (1:45:06 PM): it doesnt make me a christian
am_eniey (1:45:19 PM): language doesnt play a part in religion
am_eniey (1:45:42 PM): even the christian arab speaks arab althou they are christian and quran is in arab
christjeff80 (1:46:10 PM): thanks for the info.
christjeff80 (1:46:53 PM): why do you believe in your Allah?
am_eniey (1:47:27 PM): because Allah is the one and only God
am_eniey (1:47:44 PM): Allah reveals the torah, zabur, bible and quran
christjeff80 (1:47:49 PM): why?
am_eniey (1:47:58 PM): but in the specific language
am_eniey (1:48:08 PM): because i'm not atheist
christjeff80 (1:48:08 PM): is that all?
christjeff80 (1:48:18 PM): nobody is atheist.
am_eniey (1:48:19 PM): that's not all
christjeff80 (1:48:42 PM): is Allah truely a God alive?
am_eniey (1:49:09 PM): what do u mean alive/
christjeff80 (1:49:17 PM): Did Allah tell you where you go after your death?
am_eniey (1:49:36 PM): yes
christjeff80 (1:49:44 PM): where?
am_eniey (1:49:46 PM): through the quran, Allah tells everything
am_eniey (1:50:04 PM): where we go depends on our behaviour in this world
am_eniey (1:50:12 PM): me as a muslim may also be in hell
christjeff80 (1:50:17 PM): We have eternal life after the death
christjeff80 (1:50:29 PM): in hell? why?
am_eniey (1:50:34 PM): yes...eternal life....body dies once, soul never dies
christjeff80 (1:50:51 PM): u behave as a good muslim, why go to hell?
am_eniey (1:51:30 PM): if i dont behave as a good muslim i may be rest in hell
am_eniey (1:51:58 PM): if i behave and follow all their teachings, it helps me to heaven
christjeff80 (1:52:17 PM): Jesus told us, for those who believe in Him, can obtain eternal life because HE is the Truth, Life and Way
christjeff80 (1:52:32 PM): only Jesus, Himself!
am_eniey (1:53:04 PM): so you're saying Jesus is god?
christjeff80 (1:53:47 PM): Jesus is truely a God. As I said, Jesus is one of the Trinity God but different function.
christjeff80 (1:53:53 PM): I know muslim can accept this truth
am_eniey (1:54:09 PM): yes all muslim love jesus very much
am_eniey (1:54:24 PM): do you know why there's word trinity in the bible
am_eniey (1:54:48 PM): and why there are many word `WE` in the bible?
am_eniey (1:54:57 PM): do you know the history of it?
christjeff80 (1:55:27 PM): there is no "trinity" word in the bible the word "We" refer the plural noun of God -- trinity. see Genesis
am_eniey (1:56:15 PM): if there's no word trinity in the bible then why god associates with trinity
am_eniey (1:56:44 PM): there is no "trinity" word in the bible the word "We" refer the plural noun of God -- trinity. see Genesis<-----this is truely English side og sentence
christjeff80 (1:56:50 PM): cos God consists - Holy Father, Holy son and Holy Spirit
am_eniey (1:56:58 PM): WE in the bible doesnt mean plural
am_eniey (1:57:06 PM): it means singlular
am_eniey (1:57:15 PM): if you study the hebrew language
am_eniey (1:57:33 PM): there are differences in the meaning of the word We
am_eniey (1:57:37 PM): that has 2 meanings
christjeff80 (1:57:43 PM): the word trinity is originally from Latin language
am_eniey (1:57:51 PM): 1st We means more/less as plural
am_eniey (1:58:15 PM): 2nd We which is used in the torah/bible/quran show the superiority status of God
am_eniey (1:58:56 PM): u can ask your pastor or your super senior pastor for these
am_eniey (1:59:33 PM): 2ndly you have to study the keywords of hebrew...no need to understand all just important keyword that may help u to refer
christjeff80 (2:00:28 PM): can u ensure to go heaven when u die?
am_eniey (2:00:56 PM): with the condition that i am now.....if i die now, i will suffer in hell
am_eniey (2:01:07 PM): because i have the knowledge but i dont practice them all
am_eniey (2:01:13 PM): like praying 5 times a day
am_eniey (2:01:18 PM): fasting in ramadhan
am_eniey (2:01:48 PM): i always miss dawn prayers...because i wake up late
am_eniey (2:01:56 PM): such a lazy person i am
christjeff80 (2:05:21 PM): not only you, a lot Christians including me also shameful in my spitirual life.
christjeff80 (2:05:40 PM): for curiousity, how old r u?
am_eniey (2:05:44 PM): 25
am_eniey (2:05:48 PM): u must be 27
christjeff80 (2:06:10 PM): u married quite young.
am_eniey (2:06:33 PM): my marriage prevents me from committing more serious sinful acts
am_eniey (2:06:43 PM): i'm feeling very much thankful
christjeff80 (2:07:00 PM): such as???
am_eniey (2:07:12 PM): drinking alcohol
am_eniey (2:07:17 PM): go to pubs
am_eniey (2:07:22 PM): gro's
am_eniey (2:07:41 PM): those are my old times activities that if i die right now, surely will go to hell
am_eniey (2:08:06 PM): because hundreds of times mentioned in the quran `no alcohol, no alcohol`
christjeff80 (2:08:44 PM): then how can ur marriage prevent u from all these activity? cos of ur wife?
am_eniey (2:09:02 PM): my marriage is like a blessing to me
christjeff80 (2:09:20 PM): such as?
am_eniey (2:09:26 PM): i wont commit these acts because i know i will hurt somebody
am_eniey (2:09:37 PM): actually i should have realized this before i got married
am_eniey (2:09:53 PM): because the one that i have to truly love is Allah
am_eniey (2:10:21 PM): to the heart of all muslims, Allah is no 1
am_eniey (2:10:40 PM): as a man, mother is number 2 after Allah
am_eniey (2:10:52 PM): as a woman, husband is the number 2 after Allah
am_eniey (2:13:42 PM): that's why as a muslim, we have to obey the 5 pillars
christjeff80 (2:14:23 PM): Jesus drinks alcohol as well. what can u say?
am_eniey (2:14:35 PM): i know
am_eniey (2:14:49 PM): at the time, it was yet to be enforced
christjeff80 (2:15:41 PM): in bible, Christians are allowed to drink alcohol (cos created by God) but cannot get drunk. That's all.
christjeff80 (2:16:02 PM): a lot different between the teaching in quran and bible
christjeff80 (2:16:14 PM): we need to fill up the gap
am_eniey (2:16:18 PM): alcohol is created by human by the compositions created by god
am_eniey (2:16:40 PM): there are lots of incidents involving alcohol that is cursed
am_eniey (2:17:02 PM): yes i'm filling up the gap of those
am_eniey (2:17:44 PM): instead there are more similarity between islam and christian, the difference is not so many but very serious
christjeff80 (2:18:10 PM): I will pray for you. Hopefully you will accept Jesus as your savior.
christjeff80 (2:18:19 PM): one day.
am_eniey (2:18:36 PM): yes i agree jesus is the saviour of mankind but he is not god
am_eniey (2:18:39 PM): it cannot be changed
am_eniey (2:20:09 PM): i also pray u to buy quran, there's truth not exposed to you
am_eniey (2:20:17 PM): you can buy it in many places
christjeff80 (2:20:44 PM): i am so sorry to tell you: JESUS CHRIST is TRUELY a GOD which is formally accepted by orthodox Christians teaching.
christjeff80 (2:21:01 PM): i will buy one.
am_eniey (2:21:24 PM): jesus is not god and he will come back
am_eniey (2:21:31 PM): he will come back to earth
am_eniey (2:21:52 PM): and he is not dead
am_eniey (2:21:58 PM): he was saved by god
christjeff80 (2:22:17 PM): sorry, no matter how u argue this statement, I can't accept yours. Sorry...
am_eniey (2:22:36 PM): it's up to you because you've read only the bible
am_eniey (2:22:40 PM): i've read both
am_eniey (2:22:43 PM): so i can summarize
christjeff80 (2:23:20 PM): I know muslims only accept jesus as prophet
am_eniey (2:23:31 PM): not just prophet but messenger
am_eniey (2:23:44 PM): messenger and prophet has different status to take to account
christjeff80 (2:25:36 PM): come to church if have opportunity
am_eniey (2:26:26 PM): but i prefer to read the original script of bible in hebrew rather than go to church
am_eniey (2:26:45 PM): like muslim there's no need to go to mosque to learn, the teaching is inside quran, not mosque
christjeff80 (2:27:07 PM): u can listen to sermon in detail from the preachers in church
am_eniey (2:27:20 PM): does the sermon words of god?
am_eniey (2:27:29 PM): it isnt
am_eniey (2:27:52 PM): it's the word of the priest that relies on the what version of bible i dont know
christjeff80 (2:28:23 PM): in church, all the christians can worship God together like Muslim go to Mecca
am_eniey (2:28:25 PM): but in islam, arab is used because it's the word of god written in the quran
christjeff80 (2:28:48 PM): have u been to Meccah?
am_eniey (2:28:53 PM): nope not yet
christjeff80 (2:28:59 PM): i haven't go to Israel yet
am_eniey (2:29:13 PM): going to mecca doesnt mean just worship like going to church
christjeff80 (2:29:38 PM): then, what is the purpose to Mecca?
am_eniey (2:29:55 PM): to worship and ask for forgiveness.....
am_eniey (2:30:09 PM): for our sins that occurs between me and god
am_eniey (2:30:23 PM): between me and other human being is not forgivable
am_eniey (2:30:37 PM): unless the person whom we commit the sin forgives us
christjeff80 (2:31:00 PM): then how to solve that between human?
am_eniey (2:31:10 PM): ask for forgiveness
am_eniey (2:31:18 PM): from the specific person
christjeff80 (2:31:38 PM): how to make it?
am_eniey (2:32:09 PM): approach that person, in your heart should be the intention to ask for forgiveness
am_eniey (2:32:33 PM): but the result depends on that person....if he doesnt forgive you, you'll carry the sin burden
christjeff80 (2:32:56 PM): how if you knocked down an old man and he died?
am_eniey (2:33:15 PM): then i'll be carrying the sin for life
christjeff80 (2:33:30 PM): that's too pity.
am_eniey (2:33:33 PM): yes
am_eniey (2:33:38 PM): our fault
christjeff80 (2:34:15 PM): if a muslim rape a girl, then he has to ask for forgiveness from that girl? He dare to do so?
am_eniey (2:34:15 PM): but there's a way in islam to get forgiveness from god
am_eniey (2:34:42 PM): that is not how it works....sin is categorized in several classes
am_eniey (2:34:46 PM): heavy and light
am_eniey (2:34:57 PM): for example...rape is a heavy one
am_eniey (2:35:14 PM): the rapist shall be canned for 100 times
am_eniey (2:36:28 PM): instead the rapist will surely not commit the same again, the public will also learn a lesson from that because it's a public caning nit in the jail whatsoever
christjeff80 (2:37:36 PM): for Christian, we seek for forgiveness from Jesus and don't repeat the mistake next time.
am_eniey (2:38:05 PM): it's very easy for you as you have committed a very serious sinful act
am_eniey (2:38:18 PM): and a very light price
christjeff80 (2:38:42 PM): but we do need to face the punishment when we go to heaven
am_eniey (2:39:30 PM): if i rape somebody and i was sentenced to 30 years in prison, it still doesnt clear my sin.....unless the punishment is done on earth
am_eniey (2:39:42 PM): which means public caning
am_eniey (2:40:04 PM): i cannot complain about this because the crime is committed by me so i should pay the price
am_eniey (2:40:26 PM): raping and having sex (premarital) have a different types of punishment
am_eniey (2:40:35 PM): forgiveness itself is not enough
am_eniey (2:40:46 PM): if you're rough with your mother it's different
am_eniey (2:41:09 PM): u'll clear your sins by the forgiveness from your mom, but not through going for pilgrimage
am_eniey (2:42:07 PM): in case of pre marital sex there are two types, 1stly you're not married, 2ndly after marriage but commit sex with other besides spouse
am_eniey (2:43:39 PM): if i'm not married and having sex (not rape) with other woman the punishment on earth according to islam is public stoning
am_eniey (2:44:12 PM): if i'm married and still having sex with other women...the punishment is public stoning till we both die ( me and the women)
christjeff80 (2:50:08 PM): ever happen like this punishment (stoning) in our society?
am_eniey (2:50:26 PM): nope...because malaysia doesnt apply the islamic law
am_eniey (2:50:55 PM): malaysian rules a based on human created law which is created by the british government when the invaded us
christjeff80 (2:51:13 PM): then why we still apply the law according to England?
am_eniey (2:51:16 PM): this is the weakness of the malaysian government i cannot comprehend
christjeff80 (2:51:43 PM): u should thanksgiving on this/
am_eniey (2:51:45 PM): because asian nowadays are too influenced by the west
am_eniey (2:51:50 PM): thanksgiving?
am_eniey (2:51:55 PM): why thanksgiving?
christjeff80 (2:52:26 PM): do u know why influenced by Western as a christianity country?
am_eniey (2:52:53 PM): i dont get you question
christjeff80 (2:53:40 PM): i mean why we want to follow the western pattern which apply christianity?
am_eniey (2:54:00 PM): this is why the word iman in islam is important
am_eniey (2:54:25 PM): as we discussed earlier, humans are influenced by lust
am_eniey (2:54:37 PM): and this islamic law is only applied to muslims only
am_eniey (2:54:48 PM): non muslims like you are not involved in this rules
am_eniey (2:56:18 PM): Jeffrey: i mean why we want to follow the western pattern which apply christianity?<-----this is due to the weak understanding of islam by the malaysian government the leaders i mean but this matter is between the leader and god, for me i will not commit any sinful act
am_eniey (2:56:41 PM): it is simple, don't do crime and we shouldnt be punish by whatever punishment there is
christjeff80 (2:57:13 PM): but Malaysia is the president of world islamic
am_eniey (2:57:55 PM): that is through the eyes of humans only
am_eniey (2:58:18 PM): if malaysia say malaysia is an islamic country, what can others do
am_eniey (2:58:35 PM): but the truth is, malaysia is not an islamic country
am_eniey (2:58:51 PM): it's an ordinary country just like others china/japan/usa etcetcetc
am_eniey (2:59:10 PM): the thing that has made confusion in malaysia is race
am_eniey (2:59:22 PM): malay is always associated with islam
am_eniey (3:00:22 PM): in fact it is not
am_eniey (3:01:54 PM): 2ndly our king is a muslim....automatically in people's view, malaysia is an islamic country
christjeff80 (3:09:07 PM): how about if Malaysia is a Christian country like US, is it good ?
am_eniey (3:09:26 PM): it doesnt matter
am_eniey (3:09:35 PM): because what matters in malaysia is race
am_eniey (3:09:39 PM): i totally dont support this
am_eniey (3:10:11 PM): because muslim can live anywhere no matter what religion is the official one
am_eniey (3:10:34 PM): as long as that individual muslim obeys the teachings then it is good enough
christjeff80 (3:12:41 PM): but if under Christianity environment, you can offer more benefitial requirements and good influences. In future, your children can have good/higher quality of education.
am_eniey (3:13:00 PM): education in what term u mean?
am_eniey (3:13:12 PM): islam also encourages education
am_eniey (3:13:26 PM): the one who continues their studies is considered as jihad
am_eniey (3:13:45 PM): what bad influence you see in islam btw
christjeff80 (3:14:39 PM): but why most people prefer Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Cambridge and those world famous uni founded by Christians? less people sent children to Morocco, Arab Saudi...and I believe u will do the same as well.
christjeff80 (3:14:53 PM): i don mean Muslim brings bad effect.
am_eniey (3:15:34 PM): as the muslims are too overconfident about going to heaven, they have become lazy from what i see now
christjeff80 (3:16:08 PM): oh...that's surprising me!
am_eniey (3:16:24 PM): it surprises me too
christjeff80 (3:16:24 PM): but I see a lot scholar Muslims
am_eniey (3:16:40 PM): scholar doesnt mean by just preaching in the mosque
am_eniey (3:17:35 PM): scholar means a scholar in fardhu ain and fardhu kifayah.....ain means the knowledge regarding islam, kifayah means knowledge regarding earthly
christjeff80 (3:18:45 PM): I mean scholar (professor) in univerisity as a lecturer. They seek for knowledge as well.
am_eniey (3:19:30 PM): there are only a few people like this left in the muslim world
am_eniey (3:24:48 PM): islam used to have hundreds of thousands of scientists
am_eniey (3:25:01 PM): but their generations like us seems to have forgotten
am_eniey (3:25:09 PM): drtfted by lust/money and so on
am_eniey (3:29:09 PM): places like harvard, yale, stamford,cambridge, oxford are built based on sciences which have already proven by experiment methods by these muslim scientists
christjeff80 (3:29:24 PM): christians still devote in their religion but some not
am_eniey (3:37:03 PM): there are many miracles inside the quran that might fascinate you
am_eniey (3:37:11 PM): indeed it has fascinated me at first
am_eniey (3:37:26 PM): when people told me i did not believe it
am_eniey (3:37:32 PM): then i started my own research
christjeff80 (3:37:41 PM): example?
am_eniey (3:41:03 PM): there are 365 of the word `DAY` in quran overall throughout the quran
am_eniey (3:41:17 PM): in 1 year there are 365 days
christjeff80 (3:41:49 PM): do u know that calender exist since the birth of Jesus Christ?
am_eniey (3:41:59 PM): it's not about calendar
am_eniey (3:42:09 PM): if you search the word DAY in quran
am_eniey (3:42:27 PM): there are 365 which consists of all the verses
christjeff80 (3:42:41 PM): i see...
christjeff80 (3:43:08 PM): u pay lots of attention in religion.
am_eniey (3:43:14 PM): yes
am_eniey (3:43:20 PM): because i want to know the truth
am_eniey (3:43:23 PM): there are many more
am_eniey (3:43:32 PM): it takes time for me to type those
am_eniey (3:44:10 PM): The word "payment or reward" is repeated 117 times, while the expression "forgiveness" (mughfirah), which is one of the basic morals of the Qur'an, is repeated exactly twice that amount, 234 times.
christjeff80 (3:44:30 PM): it's my pleasure to chat with you about religion. I do study other religion like Confucious, and also philosophy.
am_eniey (3:44:36 PM): The number of times the words, "world" (dunya) and "hereafter" (akhira) are repeated is also the same: 115
am_eniey (3:44:43 PM): The word "satan" (shaitan) is used in the Qur'an 88 times, as is the word "angels" (malaika).
christjeff80 (3:45:00 PM): i see this in bible too
am_eniey (3:45:45 PM): The word "salawat" appear five times in the Qur'an, and Allah has commanded man to perform the prayer (salat) five times a day.
am_eniey (3:46:04 PM): The word "land" appears 13 times in the Qur'an and the word "sea" 32 times, giving a total of 45 references. If we divide that number by that of the number of references to the land we arrive at the figure 28.888888888889%. The number of total references to land and sea, 45, divided by the number of references to the sea in the Qur'an, 32, is 71.111111111111%. Extraordinarily, these figures represent the exact proportions of land and sea on the Earth today.
christjeff80 (3:46:50 PM): i don't have much knowledge on that but thanks to tell me those.
christjeff80 (3:47:01 PM): i will venture into it
am_eniey (3:47:18 PM): like i said, i u want more knowledge about christianity.....look for the real bible written in hebrew
am_eniey (3:47:25 PM): believe me you'll see the truth
christjeff80 (3:47:35 PM): thanks...
am_eniey (3:47:49 PM): no need to thank me
am_eniey (3:47:55 PM): i'm doing my job as a muslim
am_eniey (3:48:10 PM): the quran itself has taught me about life on earth and heaven
am_eniey (3:48:25 PM): not just about our living....the quran itself is a miracle
am_eniey (3:48:30 PM): at first i didnt notice this
christjeff80 (3:48:43 PM): u are devote in Islam
am_eniey (3:49:05 PM): not devoted
am_eniey (3:49:20 PM): if i'm devoted i will say islam is the truth without doing research
am_eniey (3:50:00 PM): if only devoted only....all questions asked against me, i'll be speechless
am_eniey (3:50:19 PM): do not compare the relegion islam with malays in malaysia
am_eniey (3:50:33 PM): everybody can be a muslim not just malay
am_eniey (3:51:12 PM): because islam has emphasized many times that Allah created many types of races for us all to acknowledge them not to discriminate them
christjeff80 (3:53:04 PM): try to read new testament in bible. I hope you can have new discovery.
am_eniey (3:53:35 PM): god's word should be just 1
am_eniey (3:53:38 PM): not old and not new
am_eniey (3:53:51 PM): only humans categorized it to new and world
am_eniey (3:53:59 PM): only humans categorized it to new and old
am_eniey (3:54:28 PM): if god sends bible....there should be just bible....not new or old/version or whatever else
am_eniey (3:54:34 PM): same goes to quran
am_eniey (3:54:41 PM): no new quran, no old quran
am_eniey (3:54:43 PM): just a quran
am_eniey (3:55:03 PM): like torah also....for the jew....there's only 1 revelation
christjeff80 (3:56:28 PM): but Christians only believe 1 revelation from the God in bible
am_eniey (3:57:46 PM): but which bible
am_eniey (3:57:53 PM): the roman catholic or the king james version?
am_eniey (3:58:02 PM): protestant or catholic
am_eniey (3:58:06 PM): which one is from god?
am_eniey (3:58:16 PM): or russian orthodox
am_eniey (3:58:20 PM): greek orthodox
christjeff80 (3:58:37 PM): read the king james. We are conservative on roman's rose bible
am_eniey (3:58:59 PM): ic...so i see a seperation here
am_eniey (3:59:13 PM): no association with the roman catholic where POPE JOHN PAUL is licing?
am_eniey (3:59:15 PM): no association with the roman catholic where POPE JOHN PAUL is living?
christjeff80 (4:02:02 PM): pope john is from RC but for us, we don't bother much about his matter. He can't be safed!
am_eniey (4:02:39 PM): so you're saying there's a seperation amongst you christian
christjeff80 (4:03:56 PM): yes...RC's bible is a lot different than christian's using bible
christjeff80 (4:04:02 PM): we have lots of denomination in Christians
am_eniey (4:04:30 PM): so you're saying that roman catholic is the wrong version of christianity and yours is the correct one?
christjeff80 (4:05:38 PM): I don't want to say like that as there is no point for me say like that.
am_eniey (4:06:30 PM): there is a point
am_eniey (4:06:33 PM): it is everything
am_eniey (4:06:51 PM): if you want to be on the right path, do research on your own
am_eniey (4:07:10 PM): preferrably from the original hebrew language of the bible.
am_eniey (4:07:20 PM): dont depend on priest or others
am_eniey (4:07:31 PM): like me, i have a quran and i read it myself
am_eniey (4:07:40 PM): without the help of any religious scholars
christjeff80 (4:09:45 PM): as u know we don't have theological background, we should seek for knowledge from the pastors in humble
am_eniey (4:10:05 PM): and the pastors must have seeked knowledge from somewhere also
am_eniey (4:10:14 PM): so why dont u go to root of the answer
am_eniey (4:10:23 PM): there's no need to go through human
am_eniey (4:10:36 PM): like i said.......humans make mistakes...god doesnt
am_eniey (4:10:53 PM): the one who translated your bible that you're holding right now is translated
am_eniey (4:10:58 PM): translated by human
am_eniey (4:11:05 PM): no reference for you whatsoever
christjeff80 (4:11:34 PM): i agree...i will work for that.
am_eniey (4:12:47 PM): go ahead because i'm not lying....if you don't believe me, you can meet me it's the warmest welcome
christjeff80 (4:13:18 PM): haha..thanks. from the conversation. I sense that you are a good guy!
am_eniey (4:13:41 PM): but i used to be very bad
christjeff80 (4:14:14 PM): but u said u have changed after marriage.
am_eniey (4:14:21 PM): yes
am_eniey (4:14:36 PM): but still carrying the burden of sin on my shoulder
christjeff80 (4:15:30 PM): i believe you can overcome it... don't repeat the mistake again as told by Jesus
am_eniey (4:16:27 PM): yes maybe jesus told us
am_eniey (4:16:37 PM): during his times
am_eniey (4:17:13 PM): but Allah also tells me
am_eniey (4:17:38 PM): i can see what Allah said through the revelation without any translation
am_eniey (4:17:42 PM): directly
christjeff80 (4:18:11 PM): Allah told u directly? or through the Al-Quran?
am_eniey (4:18:43 PM): Allah tells fellow human beings through the quran verses which is in arabic language
am_eniey (4:18:56 PM): so i can see it directly
am_eniey (4:19:21 PM): no translations involved
am_eniey (4:19:56 PM): if got translation in malay or whatever language, the original word of god remains on the side as reference
christjeff80 (4:20:04 PM): i see,,,


harap dapat kongsi pendapat saudara saudari semua.



hmmmmmm.. a very very good conv..

I'm a 46yrs old man don't hv such knowlege as wat he has...I really salute him Thks. ALLAHU AKBAR

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